Peter Brimelow Interview With Thom Hartmann
[Peter Brimelow was interviewed by
Thom Hartmann, [Contact
him]the left-wing or progressive host of a popular
Air America talk radio show on December 16, 2008. This
is the transcript, with our replies to some of his
points, and links.]
show in MP3]
bloviating about the War on Christmas—the War on
Christmas, an ongoing theme. O`Reilly is really the guy
that brought it to national prominence, but it didn`t
start with Bill O`Reilly. It really started with Peter
Brimelow. He`s the author of
Nation: Common Sense about America`s Immigration
Disaster.. He`s the founder of a website called
VDare.com, and Peter Brimelow, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, Thom,
and I do agree with you about Bush. We`ve been
calling for his impeachment.
Yeah. Well, you know, from
Right to Left—
That may put you off from
impeaching Bush, of course, but nevertheless we agree on
Yeah, I`ve changed my
screensaver now given the realities of the day, from
Bush." But, Peter—
I don`t know what the
Democrats are waiting for.
Yeah, indeed. Peter, V. Dare
was the name of the first British citizen of the United
States. Do I have that right, where you got the name
No, it`s the name of the first
English child that was born in the United States. She
was born in the
and of course, subsequently was lost—vanished
completely, when the Lost Colony was lost.
Right. Which would be the
natural born, I guess, American citizen.
You know, if you use the
definitions of the
14th Amendment—but we`re splitting hairs.
intelligent Left (which obviously includes Thom
Hartmann) is clearly gearing up to defend the stupid and
catastrophic 14th Amendment
misinterpretation. This outrage is the main
legal/political reason why America as a nation is
teetering on the brink of oblivion—while Switzerland,
with very similar
native/immigrant demographics—continues serenely to
Well, you see the thing is,
was once very well known and Franklin D. Roosevelt
went down to celebrate her 400th anniversary—whatever
it was—was that it was the beginning of America as
we know it, you know, as an English-speaking power based
on—a big country based on the Common Law and
all that kind of thing. That all came from England.
Right. Now, the winner of your
2001 War on Christmas Competition,
Piatak, if I`m pronouncing that right, said that
those behind the assault on Christmas evidently prefer
Hanukkah, which he called the Jewish Kwanzaa, a phony
holiday—a faux holiday.
Oh, you`re reading Max
I am. Yeah.
But you know, as Tom
has said on our website, he didn`t say that. That
first of all, the Jewish Kwanzaa thing actually came
from a writer called Schwarz, I believe, who was
writing in the
American Heritage and he was arguing that, you
know, that Hanukkah is not a serious Jewish festival.
Okay. Well, I go over to
VDare.com, your website, and you know, there`s the
"hey, help us out financially" stuff there and
you say, "On our second thank you gift, we`ll send you a free copy of the Social
Contract Special Issue for every donation of $100; and
if you send $250, not only will you get that, you`ll
also get a copy of
America`s Half-Blood Prince." Who is America`s—
Listening to the
audio version of this is very revealing at this point.
Hartmann gets emotional. Any reference to “blood”
seemingly gets the Adrenaline pumping. As Peter Brimelow
That`s a book that was just
Sailer. It`s based on a very careful analysis of
Obama`s own book, you know, whatever it`s called
from My Father: A Story Of Race And Inheritance]
and his autobiography.
Why does it matter that—
Steve comes to the conclusion
that on the one hand Obama is not a transcendent
candidate. He`s motivated by his own scars—psychological
scars—from—abandoned by his father and his
racial heritage and so on. But on the other hand, he
comes to the conclusion that Obama is going to be a
moderate in his first term because he is intensely
He`s going to be a moderate,
That seems to be borne out by—
But here`s the question, you know,
Keith Olbermann has talked about you guys. In fact,
you`ve got his picture on your homepage at VDare.
Yeah, he`s good for us. You
know, we can raise a lot of money against Olbermann.
Well, no doubt. And you know,
Max Blumenthal did this exposé piece on you guys,
and basically what they suggest is that you guys are
white supremacist; that in your 1995 book,
Alien Nation, you talked about
with dubious habits."
Have you not read
our refutation of that?
I beg your pardon?
Have you not read my—I mean,
first of all, Max is wrong to say that we started this
competition on VDare. I
started it when I was at
National Review in the mid-nineties. They dropped it when they
had the purge and they fired
John O`Sullivan and dropped the immigration line,
Right. They brought in
Rich Lowry, who`s a little more moderate.
Well, he`s a Republican, isn`t
he. He`s basically a Republican hack, whereas we`re just
Yeah, but here`s the point:
Why do you care what race a person is? It seems to me
this is like just really toxic stuff.
Well, you know, the short
answer is we don`t. VDare.com is a forum site where we
publish people who are critical of current immigration
policy, and a lot of these people are not all
But the basis of that
criticism tends to be cultural or religious or very
No. A lot of the people who
write for us are people who are
environmentalists. We even have some
progressives who are worried about the impact of
immigration on the wages of the
vast bulk of Americans. Wages in this country have
stagnated for thirty years, you know.
You`re not going to find any
disagreement with that here, but again, reading your
site and you know, books—
I`m sorry, Tom, you`re
breaking up. I didn`t catch your answer.
It very much sounds like what
you`re saying is—well, let me just ask right straight
out: Do you believe that the white race is superior to
No. I think it is different
though. I think there probably are racial differences.
What I was going to say was—we publish a wide range of
writers and there are some people who you could
fairly describe as
So you think that the color of
a skin of a person, which is one set of genes and
another set of genes for the color and type of hair they
have, and another set of genes for the eye color; I mean
we know now that there actually is no gene for race. You
think that the color of a person`s skin causes them to
I`m just saying, are you
suggesting that we should be dividing people by race for
some particular reason?
This has to be heard to grasp the emotionalism. Those Holocaust movies
work! Even if they are boringly repetitive.]
I mean if they`re different,
And there are a whole variety
But let me answer you. Let me
make a specific point here, Thom.
If you look at the way
Americans vote, that does differ systematically by race.
And the voting patterns don`t shift a great deal over
time. They all sway one direction or they all sway
another, but basically they differ enormously by race—
By and large because we have a
Truly fatuous remark. If there are multiple races, racial conflict is
if you have a [cross-talk]
of that, as we do at the moment, which is actually
importing very large numbers of people, basically from
Third World countries—and
know that they are going to vote Democratic—you`re
shifting the country to the Left through public
policy, and that is an irrefutable and completely
logical argument. Why are we importing—
Well, and the basis for that
is the Republican party represents, and always has, or
at least has since the 1880s, has represented the
interests of large corporations and very wealthy people.
And in a nation that is built on racism, that has been
by and large white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
Well, you know, white
Protestants make up 45 percent of the electorate right
now, so that is a pretty large—I mean, you know, all
kinds of white Protestants living in poverty in
Appalachia and so on, it`s not—
But what are you so afraid of—
I`m inclined to agree with you
by the way about the Republican Party. I think the
Republican Party is in the pockets of big corporations.
But one of the consequences of that of course is they
want vast amounts of cheap labor, which is exactly why
George Bush staked his entire presidency trying to force
through amnesty for illegal aliens, not once, but twice—
analysis Thom Hartman is definitely not in business
But Peter Brimelow, you`re the
guy behind the War on Christmas. What are you so afraid
You know, I got interested in
this in the mid-nineties when people were
afraid to say Merry Christmas. They think it`s
offensive. And I regard this as Christophobia.
Apparently, there are people out there who just can`t
bear to hear the word `Christmas` because—
I don`t see it as offensive.
But if I don`t know if somebody is Jewish or Moslem or
atheist, which I respect as well, I don`t want to shove
something in their face. It`s a whole lot easier to say
Why have we got to get to the
Our quote for the day from
Oliver Wendell Holmes: Man`s mind stretched to a new
idea, never goes back to its original dimensions.
War on Christmas idea has been around for years. Bill
O`the clown" as Keith Olbermann
refers to him and I think it`s a marvelous
flogging this for some time, but the real founder of
this is Peter Brimelow, and Peter, the author of
Common Sense about America`s
Immigration Debate and other books. His website:
I`m sorry, we stepped on you in mid-sentence there
toward the end. I`m still trying to wrap my brain around
this idea that people are different racially and that if
somebody wants to say
that that`s somehow a slap on Christianity, and why you
would have people like white supremacist
Kevin MacDonald (who says that Jews are genetically
equipped to outcompete gentiles)
for your site? The whole gestalt of this, of trying to
divide us by race—not even trying to, doing it—and by
religion, and doing it in a highly adversarial, highly
"oh, you`re trying to come and get us, we`re the big
victims." I mean this is so last year`s right-wing
There is no doubt that
Christmas is a victim of political correctness. You
Christophobia is a real force in American society.
There are a lot of people out there who don`t like
Christianity and one of the ways they do expressions of
this is they try to stamp out any mention of Christmas
because it contains the name of Christ. And we have a
whole series—more than two hundred examples of this over
six or seven years.
What we`re talking about
really here is the market place.
Let me interrupt. First turn
the question back to you. By the way, Jared Taylor is
not a white supremacist, he`s a white nationalist.
There`s a difference. He`s trying to represent the
interests of whites, who are still the majority of
people in this country—
won`t be in 10 years.
Hear the gloating?]
La Raza represents the interests of Hispanics and
Zionist organizations represents the perceived
interests of Jews and black nationalists represent the
interests of blacks. Now, if you have a highly diverse
society, particularly one where diversity has been
imported by public policy, it`s absolutely
inevitable that at some point whites are going to
organize to defend their own interests just as every
other racial group is doing.
Hey, they started back in the
1700s. It was called the KKK.
slip by Hartmann. The KKK was a post Civil War/
Reconstruction Resistance phenomenon.]
We don`t only run white
nationalists on the site. We have a wide—anybody who is
interested in immigration policy. And for that reason,
Thom, I know it`s hard to believe it, but I have people
all the time writing to me who say they`re Democrats and
they`re fed up with the immigration disaster, or who are
environmentalists. We have Hispanics who write to us and
Hey, some of the most virulent
racists I know are Democrats.
How very interesting! Who? All white southern Democrats are
gelded on this
Hmmm, let`s think…]
I beg your pardon?
I said some of the most
virulent racists I know are Democrats. It sounds, Peter,
like you`re saying,
"Well, yeah, one of my friends is black…"
Is it racism if people object
to their wages being beaten down by the import of cheap
labor? What`s racist about that? Samuel Gompers was
fearlessly in favor of immigration reform in the early
1900s for exactly this reason: If you increase the
supply of labor, you drive down its price. And this is
becoming increasingly obvious in the technical
Quarterly Journal of Economics carried an article
five years ago by George Borjas from Harvard, who found
its effects right across the board in American wages. [The
Labor Demand Curve Is Downward Sloping:
Reexamining the Impact of Immigration on the Labor
Market, The Quarterly Journal of Economics, November
You know, Peter Brimelow, you
are right. You are right. I`ve got a chapter about this
in my book Screwed
The fact of the matter is that if employers can bring in
illegal workers and people who are not citizens to
increase the workforce—I mean
David Ricardo wrote about this in 1817 in his book
that when the supply of labor roughly equals the demand
for labor, the cost of labor will fall to a subsistence
level. In other words, we will be back to Victorian
England. But you guys are taking it a step farther and
saying—as by the way we did in the United States in the
1880s, when we passed laws against
"yellow people" (that was the phrase used in the legislation)[VDARE.com
commnt: This is wrong, as far as we know. Certainly the
phrase doesn`t appear in the
Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. Perhaps he was
thinking about the phrase "yellow
peril" which was popular at the time.]—Chinese,
Asians—being imported in to work on the railroads
because the railroads were trying to
bust the unions by importing Chinese labor, much
like Mexican labor is coming in now. You guys take it a
step further by pointing out the
religion of these people. And that`s where I say it
gets toxic. That`s where it becomes
anti-American. That`s where it becomes destructive
to this Republic.
That`s why it`s impossible to
get an immigration debate going in this country for 30
years because anybody whoever says anything critical
about immigration is
accused of racism. Now, let me ask you—
I haven`t been, and I`ve been
quite up front about this for years on this show.
I`ve seen from the
Wikipedia entry for you, Thom, that you have a very
commendable interest in attention deficit disorder and
you have advanced a theory, it says here, that ADD is
related to an evolutionary adaptation from
hunter-gatherer lifestyles. Now, if that`s a fair
statement of what you`re saying, that`s a
sociobiological argument. It`s a racial argument. You`re
saying that it`s in our genes.
It`s not a racial argument. It
is a genetic argument absolutely and you can make the
same thing for coeliac disease or Huntingdon`s disease
or anything else.
But it is a sociobiological
argument, isn`t it?
That doesn`t imply—
It is a sociobiological
argument, isn`t it?
No it`s not. It is—
Of course it is.
Well, okay, arguably it is,
but it is not talking about power. What you guys are
talking about is power; is, who`s in charge.
In other words, if it`s okay
for you to talk about evolutionary psychology, it`s okay
Kevin MacDonald to talk about it.
I don`t mind when he`s talking
about it. My problem comes along when he says,
people should be in charge, and these other people
This country was fundamentally
a white country when it started off. Do you want to see
I have no problem with that as
long as our core values are the same.
At this point, the broadcast was abruptly terminated
without giving Peter Brimelow a chance to respond.
Possibly, based on the clumsy commercial break
intrusion, this is the way this station works.
“As long as our core values are the same.”
Of course, this is the crucial issue
Christophobes). Why should anyone in their right
minds expect the
Somalis, or the
Refugee Industry`s recent favorites, to have
America`s core values? Because of our effective
educational system? As Milton Friedman told Peter
"t`s a curious fact that
capitalism developed and has really come to fruition in
the English-speaking world. It hasn`t really made the
same progress even in Europe–certainly not in France,
for instance. I don`t know why this is so, but the fact
has to be admitted"
[Must America also?]
(email him) is editor of
VDARE.COM and author of the much-denounced Alien Nation: Common Sense About America`s Immigration Disaster,
(Random House –
The Worm in the Apple (HarperCollins – 2003)